Oh. Yeah. Sorry, I thought you... are we talking about God not fixing things being because of stuff predating the murders or something about me specifically here?
Your distrust of them, I mean. You said the root of that was you have argued about things that needed fixing, but the example you gave was our present circumstances. But I think there must have been something that predated those circumstances to make you feel that way, yes? Other things they wouldn't fix that you thought they ought to?
Oh. I don't know if we need to go over my own personal abandonment issues. [ yeah. ] The old god didn't bother finding me until after I died and didn't care about being found, versus all the times I tried asking for help and never got an answer. But we talked about this project and it made sense to me. So here I am. The new god probably wanted someone more competent, so then came the angels.
I see. No, that's - I understand. It's a common reason. [thinking about astarion now. "I tried them all, none of them answered." yeah.] Sometimes having prayers answered is also not ideal, but neither situation particularly engenders trust.
I talked to them myself about that, about how I feel about it... even deities with moral goals and intentions are so removed from the realities of our lives and what matters to us.
[chewing her lip, thinking about that flash of a dark thought bubble when she asked a different question.]
Was there something else that occurred to you? An issue that needed fixing that predates all of this?
Right. It's one of those "be careful what you wish for" kind of things, but sometimes what you wish for is so big it doesn't matter the consequences you might face if it means a prayer is answered. I don't know. I talked to Lucas about this a lot. Why a God wouldn't answer if they had the ability to do it.
[ a pull from their coffee. ]
... what's your impression of this god now? I'm hearing some mixed results when people mention it, and I think I know myself enough to know I'm biased.
[ they will answer the other thing with a nod, and they'll talk about it because it's fine, but it feels awkward for them to just start mentioning it. but, well, maybe there's this. ]
I was trying to find someone and get back to them. And then I ended up here.
I see. And you would have loved the help of a merciful deity to get back to that person, but such help did not come for you?
[hmmm.]
I've always found this God reasonable, in the sense that they are open to being criticized without a violent and vindictive response, which is rare among deities. [but that's a little different than trust. she has always been polite because she knows that there are gods who will simply TPK you if you come to them with attitude, and she has sweat watching friends of hers profess that they will give god a scolding, but then it seemed to turn out without violence.] But I don't know if I believe that gods really care for us in the same way that we care for one another. Maybe they're too remote, the smallness of our lives too evident for them. If I had the power to help you find your friend, I would exercise it for you without question. Any one of us would likely do so. But by virtue of being a divinity, the impulse to exercise any ability we had to help one individual is subsumed within all of the greater and higher purposes and the vastness of all of the needs individuals have the universe over.
On the other hand, learning that this one is new... it made me feel that maybe I was hasty. Maybe there's still time for them to see things differently. I talked to them about some of my own experiences. Not only Lady Shar, but her "good" counterpart, who nonetheless did not extend any particular protection to me after I defended her own daughter...
Maybe it isn't possible for a god to see each of us as people, when the size of their knowledge and lives is so vast. [like, not even shade to selûne. in the grand scope of a battle that has existed throughout the aeons, it would be impossible to extend individual attention to every person who was a casualty of it, or to risk everything to protect one ex-sharran.] But I'd like to think there's a window of time to try.
I had given up seeking God by the time I died. I was going to try and find them myself with or without help, because if God couldn't be around to help save someone else I couldn't stand to lose, I wasn't gonna take my chances. Dying was just a consequence of my own actions, and somehow that happened. Who knew all I had to do was ignore God to be noticed?
[ but they listen... this all sounds reasonable and they don't seem to think anything she's saying is strange. ]
You hear about it in stories all the time. How Gods are powerful and above all man, and how man has to worship them and be faithful to them. The bible's a whole playbook on all the ways you have to follow rules and maybe God will save you. It's a lot of waiting and believing, and I can get if one or two things don't come through but an entire lifetime? Or the most tragic events? If your people are leaving their lives in your hands and waiting for you, how do you not feel bad about this? How doesn't it kill you to know people are counting on you and you let them down?
[ and therein lies the anger. but... ]
The new god and I have talked a few times since the transition. They seem to respond better to the girls, but seeing as I'm the one who was here the whole time I guess I'm the frame of reference. I think there are a bunch of things I don't agree with them on. But I also think you're probably right. Maybe I'm also being too hasty. Maybe this window where they're hiding you guys is a good enough window to try and change them, too. Especially if they're listening and talking to you guys. But I also can see not everyone having the patience for that. I can't blame anybody for being mad or for being hasty because when you think of God you think of great power. This shit shouldn't be happening under God.
I think that is the crux of it. None of this ought to be happening under god, but it is. And I do think very many feel angry about it, or at least... deceived? As though when we came here we were asked to believe one thing, that we had come to a place where we'd be given a second chance if we worked at it, but...
That was already a tall order to believe in, and the rug was pulled out from under us right away.
I mean that at least for me... I came here quite guarded, unlikely to put my trust in this particular god or these angels. Being told I'd died and had come to heaven was itself a difficult thing to believe, considering I was bound to go to Lady Shar's domain upon my death. And then on top of that, to be told this would be a friendly little experiment where we would have the chance to better ourselves and return to life... It's the sort of offer that seems too good to be true, particularly given the life I've led and where I have placed my faith.
I don't think I was alone in both feeling that way, but also in, despite my lack of trust, trying to believe in the offer. So when it immediately turned to violence and death and temptations to kill one another, it felt a little like... well, of course it wasn't actually going to be anything nice. It's the sort of thing that makes you feel like a fool for trying to believe at all.
I know that isn't what God intended, but I suspect it is the crux of why many of us find it hard to trust.
[ they're listening a little closer... and okay, yes, that makes more sense. ]
It doesn't change that it happened whether it was God's fault or not. Yeah... yeah, I get that. The chain of events that started off feels more like a punishment for getting your hopes up, and the fact it's gone on this long hasn't helped. [ ...which... is frustrating. ]
It'll be God's mess to clean up, right? It makes you wonder if they'll actually figure something out.
Exactly. I think I said something similar to the angels early on - not all of us are the sort of people inclined to blindly trust just because someone's words are kind. I doubt most of us would be here if we were.
[there's sort of a running theme of people here who have been beaten down into the dirt a lot of times and learned a specific way of being.]
Words are words, but we need to see proof of actual efforts being made to put things right before we'll be willing to extend trust.
And even then some proofs are worth more than others. [ just comes out to say this. ] ... what do you think would even count at this point? Considering how far this has gone to the wayside.
I honestly don't know. I understand that they intend to give the lost souls a chance too, and that they intend to allow another attempt for those who didn't succeed under these conditions.
I can't really speak for anyone else, whether that will be enough. There's a part of me that still chafes at the idea of judgment. If I changed for the better, it wasn't for the sake of being assessed. There were just a great many people who cared enough about what I was telling them to insist on something different. And I think many of us proved maybe there was never anything particularly wrong with us, given how many people responded to a situation this brutal by showing a lot of fortitude and kindness.
[but also there are some people here whose asses she truly can't stand so she's not exactly going to argue that is true for everyone.]
[ another sip of their coffee, and a pensive silence.
why are you even asking? it's not like you can change anything...
but it makes sense, what she's saying. and so there's a short nod. ]
... you might be one of the only people who actually understand the project then. [ just. quietly said. ] It was never about changing for God. It was about changing for yourselves, to recognize you have potential to be better, and that the things "wrong" about you actually aren't wrong. They're just... changed because of outside factors. The only thing God is doing here is watching, and deciding if a second chance would allow further progress. People shouldn't be trying to change just to be assessed. It's the same way you can't force a person to change at all.
And it's probably why the judgment's happening in the first place.
[ because yeah, they agree some of you truly have not changed, or have changed for the worst, and it would be disastrous to actually revive them or let them stay in a place that's meant to be peaceful. ]
Unfortunately, they have. [ which is frustrating. ] ... it won't be held against you. The roughest parts, I mean. Not that it changes that it happened but...
[ after a moment they just seem to give up. ]
Never mind. I feel like you get what I'm trying to say, at least.
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[ lost the thread of thought. ]
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I talked to them myself about that, about how I feel about it... even deities with moral goals and intentions are so removed from the realities of our lives and what matters to us.
[chewing her lip, thinking about that flash of a dark thought bubble when she asked a different question.]
Was there something else that occurred to you? An issue that needed fixing that predates all of this?
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[ a pull from their coffee. ]
... what's your impression of this god now? I'm hearing some mixed results when people mention it, and I think I know myself enough to know I'm biased.
[ they will answer the other thing with a nod, and they'll talk about it because it's fine, but it feels awkward for them to just start mentioning it. but, well, maybe there's this. ]
I was trying to find someone and get back to them. And then I ended up here.
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[hmmm.]
I've always found this God reasonable, in the sense that they are open to being criticized without a violent and vindictive response, which is rare among deities. [but that's a little different than trust. she has always been polite because she knows that there are gods who will simply TPK you if you come to them with attitude, and she has sweat watching friends of hers profess that they will give god a scolding, but then it seemed to turn out without violence.] But I don't know if I believe that gods really care for us in the same way that we care for one another. Maybe they're too remote, the smallness of our lives too evident for them. If I had the power to help you find your friend, I would exercise it for you without question. Any one of us would likely do so. But by virtue of being a divinity, the impulse to exercise any ability we had to help one individual is subsumed within all of the greater and higher purposes and the vastness of all of the needs individuals have the universe over.
On the other hand, learning that this one is new... it made me feel that maybe I was hasty. Maybe there's still time for them to see things differently. I talked to them about some of my own experiences. Not only Lady Shar, but her "good" counterpart, who nonetheless did not extend any particular protection to me after I defended her own daughter...
Maybe it isn't possible for a god to see each of us as people, when the size of their knowledge and lives is so vast. [like, not even shade to selûne. in the grand scope of a battle that has existed throughout the aeons, it would be impossible to extend individual attention to every person who was a casualty of it, or to risk everything to protect one ex-sharran.] But I'd like to think there's a window of time to try.
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[ but they listen... this all sounds reasonable and they don't seem to think anything she's saying is strange. ]
You hear about it in stories all the time. How Gods are powerful and above all man, and how man has to worship them and be faithful to them. The bible's a whole playbook on all the ways you have to follow rules and maybe God will save you. It's a lot of waiting and believing, and I can get if one or two things don't come through but an entire lifetime? Or the most tragic events? If your people are leaving their lives in your hands and waiting for you, how do you not feel bad about this? How doesn't it kill you to know people are counting on you and you let them down?
[ and therein lies the anger. but... ]
The new god and I have talked a few times since the transition. They seem to respond better to the girls, but seeing as I'm the one who was here the whole time I guess I'm the frame of reference. I think there are a bunch of things I don't agree with them on. But I also think you're probably right. Maybe I'm also being too hasty. Maybe this window where they're hiding you guys is a good enough window to try and change them, too. Especially if they're listening and talking to you guys. But I also can see not everyone having the patience for that. I can't blame anybody for being mad or for being hasty because when you think of God you think of great power. This shit shouldn't be happening under God.
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That was already a tall order to believe in, and the rug was pulled out from under us right away.
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[she thinks about how to explain it better.]
I mean that at least for me... I came here quite guarded, unlikely to put my trust in this particular god or these angels. Being told I'd died and had come to heaven was itself a difficult thing to believe, considering I was bound to go to Lady Shar's domain upon my death. And then on top of that, to be told this would be a friendly little experiment where we would have the chance to better ourselves and return to life... It's the sort of offer that seems too good to be true, particularly given the life I've led and where I have placed my faith.
I don't think I was alone in both feeling that way, but also in, despite my lack of trust, trying to believe in the offer. So when it immediately turned to violence and death and temptations to kill one another, it felt a little like... well, of course it wasn't actually going to be anything nice. It's the sort of thing that makes you feel like a fool for trying to believe at all.
I know that isn't what God intended, but I suspect it is the crux of why many of us find it hard to trust.
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It doesn't change that it happened whether it was God's fault or not. Yeah... yeah, I get that. The chain of events that started off feels more like a punishment for getting your hopes up, and the fact it's gone on this long hasn't helped. [ ...which... is frustrating. ]
It'll be God's mess to clean up, right? It makes you wonder if they'll actually figure something out.
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[there's sort of a running theme of people here who have been beaten down into the dirt a lot of times and learned a specific way of being.]
Words are words, but we need to see proof of actual efforts being made to put things right before we'll be willing to extend trust.
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I can't really speak for anyone else, whether that will be enough. There's a part of me that still chafes at the idea of judgment. If I changed for the better, it wasn't for the sake of being assessed. There were just a great many people who cared enough about what I was telling them to insist on something different. And I think many of us proved maybe there was never anything particularly wrong with us, given how many people responded to a situation this brutal by showing a lot of fortitude and kindness.
[but also there are some people here whose asses she truly can't stand so she's not exactly going to argue that is true for everyone.]
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why are you even asking? it's not like you can change anything...
but it makes sense, what she's saying. and so there's a short nod. ]
... you might be one of the only people who actually understand the project then. [ just. quietly said. ] It was never about changing for God. It was about changing for yourselves, to recognize you have potential to be better, and that the things "wrong" about you actually aren't wrong. They're just... changed because of outside factors. The only thing God is doing here is watching, and deciding if a second chance would allow further progress. People shouldn't be trying to change just to be assessed. It's the same way you can't force a person to change at all.
And it's probably why the judgment's happening in the first place.
[ because yeah, they agree some of you truly have not changed, or have changed for the worst, and it would be disastrous to actually revive them or let them stay in a place that's meant to be peaceful. ]
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Unfortunately, these circumstances are now also driving us to malice and madness.
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[ after a moment they just seem to give up. ]
Never mind. I feel like you get what I'm trying to say, at least.
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Let me know if you think of any other questions, okay? [ otherwise I think this thread is good as we run straight into w7 ]