[ so TRUE... sometimes you need to be a bit cocky, and sometimes you need to be humbled. the fine balance of progress...
not exactly meant to be an immediate example, but when kiraman slows down for him jing yuan will take advantage to speed ahead. it's not a race (not one he could win even if it were), but he thinks it would be funny to pretend there's any challenge here. he's calling over his shoulder while he's (momentarily) ahead, ]
I think I understand. My situation may be slightly different than yours, but the idea is the same. It's important to be able to stay in touch with yourself, and to put the effort into being connected to the world around you. Even in the little ways, or especially so.
[ GOODBYE. there's a slight laugh as he watches jing yuan bypass him, picking up his speed to catch up a little. ]
I think your situation is very different than mine, but the need for normalcy is probably universal. [ but there's something... odd about how he reacts to that. ] I used to have a lot of things I used to do, and I quit most of them as I got older. I don't really regret that though.
[ and lo, the comic shop. he hops off of his board to bring it to a stop, kicking it up to grab it and then basically delete it from space. ]
[ hmM??? what is odd about that reaction... but jing yuan nods. ]
It's natural to grow out of things, too. Nobody stays exactly as they are, as the years pass. ...Though admittedly that can be a little difficult to remember, for the same reason.
[ stagnation, his old enemy... but his emotions are calm as he says this, a little amused and reflective. but yay! they've made it! it would be so funny if kiraman just deleted the skateboard under jing yuan's feet. ]
How I've been waiting for this day.
[ the fabled comic shop... as they go inside, ]
...Perhaps you've gotten this question quite a bit, but after speaking with a few others here, I've been wondering. Would it be possible for them to go to a different world after this project is over, instead of back to their original ones?
Yeah. When the changes are so minute in the span of hundreds of years you probably stop noticing and just let them happen.
[ he should delete the board under jing yuan, but unfortunately, again, he respects the guy so he waits until he's off before deleting that one, too. into the shop they go... ]
... I actually haven't gotten that question, specifically. [ he's drifting to browse comics, thinking this over. ] You mean permanently? It's... maybe possible, but I don't know if there'd be a way back if they ever changed their mind. Why do you ask?
[ kiraman... 🥺 i hope he respects jing yuan less w5
(also i'm truly floored nobody has asked kiraman about this!! but then again looking at the dysfunction in this gy, NEVERMIND!!) ]
Yes, I do mean permanently. I'm not sure how much you know of everyone's history [ all of it?? either way he's trying to be respectful of people's privacy ], but there are a few here who would be returning to very hostile environments.
For example, where forced human experimentation is rampant, and where fatality is guaranteed for all those who reach the age of 23. [ the virches, man. hawke had also said he wanted to go someplace nicer, but jing yuan doesn't have as much of a grasp of da2 lore. ]
...I suppose, in a similar vein I also have a question about timelines. I do intend to return to when I came from, however in Jiaoqiu's version of things, I never actually died. Would you say that we would be returning to two different realities, in this case?
[ depends on his behavior during the party, thanks. ALSO NOBODY TALKS PLOT WITH HIM most of you guys actually leave the gy npcs alone, very funny. ]
I don't know much about any of you outside of what's on the profiles. And nobody really says and assumes we know things, so... not much. [ SHRUG. ] If they're returning to hostile environments that's probably grounds for going somewhere else. God wouldn't send you right back to a place you'd likely die again immediately if you didn't want to. [ he just frowns though because what the fuck lore is this. WHO IS THIS!!! ]
... there's a thing called the Butterfly Effect. Something small, like the flap of a butterfly's wings, could cause huge changes in another set of linear events. That would make it another timeline, or another reality. So yes, I would say you'd be returning to two different ones. I do wonder though if you went back if those two realities would just... merge. If the only differences is you being alive or not.
[ yves is so fucking nosy. i say, as if he did not tell kiraman he reached out to god as of w5.
anyway. ]
Exactly. Why go through eight whole weeks to go back just to get yourself killed again and end up right back here? You may as well have been accepted in the first place. [ picking up a comic, he starts to thumb through it. ]
The timeline absorbing the old timeline would make sense to me. Like cutting back the dead end so the new one can grow over it. It's not erasing the main root, but it's creating something stronger. I think... it would be more likely yours was absorbed into his, if that's the way it worked. As long as he knew he was meant to contact you in the further. But if you both remember things as they were here, that's a lot of secrets to be keeping from everybody else.
[ which isn't bad. he thinks maybe they could do it? but also you said memshare so conveniently, the screen above kiraman's head kind of flickers on and jing yuan can see whatever the fuck this is. ]
Keeping secrets, hmm. [ the emoshare is calm in the sense of i wish to sleep.
but also thinks about a potential basqiu wedding in the future and all the lies they would have to make up to their mutual friends...
anyway he's no longer sleepy. AWAKE AFTER THAT MEMSHARE. a bit wryly, after he's absorbed a little more of whatever just happened, ]
...So whose car were you driving?
[ since kiraman had mentioned just earlier he didn't have a car. but more seriously, jing yuan is observing him more closely. it isn't so much he's seeing kiraman in a new light, but more that a new facet of him has been illuminated.
with genuine concern, ] What happened afterwards? Did this all have to do with Safesurf?
[ oh that's such a mood. so much that kiraman doesn't even realize this mood is not his, he just accepts it and sinks right into it.
that's very cute though. messy, but cute. trying to explain to hsr who the hell basilio is for jiaoqiu to marry... messy.
GOOD MORNING, SORRY FOR MEM. kiraman tilts his head back to look at the screen and just frowns a little. ]
The people posing as my parents each had their own car. So there was usually at least one I could borrow. [ as for what happened... ] A lot of things happened after that. Safesurf came later, as more UIs started to pop up. But after that specifically? I had Rachel play along to tell Renee I was no longer suspicious of her, while I did more research and waited to confront Cary about what they knew, what the job was, and who I was.
[ AHHH THE MUTUAL TIRED VIBES... and yeah it really will be so messy. PROBLEMS FOR FUTURE THEM!
also bending timelines a bit if that's okay since i don't thiiiink they have this discussion until the weekend: ]
'Posing' as your parents... Is that why you find it difficult to trust adults? And what were you being monitored for, to begin with?
[ reviewing our last lore share thread and though kiraman explained the technology aspect of things in detail... the rest is still a big question mark i believe... ]
[ bending timelines is fine because it's a natural question to ask. ]
That was before I found out my entire life was a lie. [ ...sigh. ] About eighteen years before I was born, there was a guy named Stephen Holstrom. The world thought of him as a genius, and he had the idea of advancing humanity with the creation of uploaded intelligence. Holstrom's company created the first UIs. But when he created them, there was a flaw in the minds he uploaded. Without solving for integrity, those minds would decay.
He died before he could figure out how to solve it. But he and his people had a back-up plan. [ ... ] Project Moonshot, I guess.
[ ME IN THE BG PEPESILVIA'ING THE LORE................. ]
I don't doubt it. [ GET HIS ASS! but also... there is obvious concern. imagine finding out you were created solely to be an extension of someone else. that's a huge existential crisis to face. ]
...It must have been a shock, to discover the truth. Is it something you've made peace with?
[ it sure is, and this is about when jing yuan finds out that kiraman is still experiencing that existential crisis because he only found out a few months before he died. ]
What do you mean? It made total sense that my entire life was a lie, a company founded by Holstrom had a whole team that was hired to monitor my every move, my real mom was a robot made for the ectogenesis process, the woman posing as my mom fed weekly reports about me back to them for eighteen years, the man posing as my father believed in their project so strongly he went right along with everything up until he told me the truth, and every significant moment of my childhood was modeled beat for beat after someone else to make sure I'd grow up the same way.
[ so no! no peace! but...he does say something he normally wouldn't, just for context. ]
... without Maddie, I would have ended up just like him. And because of her, I knew how to stop him.
[ yeah that is... a lot! just so much. (so ty core...) (POSITIVE AFFECTIONATE)
jing yuan will let that explanation soak in for a moment. his projected emotions are still calm, but reflective. almost solemn. he waits for kiraman to finish speaking. ]
...I am sorry, Caspian. Truly.
[ it is terribly cruel, to be raised within a cage, to be designed to be without true agency or autonomy. ]
I'm grateful you did have someone in all this. And that you ended up as yourself, despite everything.
[ yes unfortunately being a self-sacrificing clone did in fact make him more my type, terrible. it's... still nervewracking to think about these things, and there's a bit of anger and a bit of longing to it.
there's a brief bolt of surprise at the use of his actual name, but he allows it. ]
Maddie and I meeting was coincidence. Sort of. She reached out to me because we met online and we were talking about UIs and... Logorhythms never expected me to go off of their path. So I Guess I'm pretty grateful to her, too.
[ jing yuan has never really had a solid grasp of just how old or young caspian is—he's simultaneously both, and it shows in different way. seeing him vulnerable and hurt is one of those reminders of what his age should be...
and he wishes there was something he could say, to ease that pain. (thankfully, kiraman finds the words himself.) ]
...I can see why she's so special to you. And likewise, I believe she saw you for who you were. Not what you were designed to be.
[ the lingering anger, and the longing... kiraman could be more destructive with those feelings, and it would be understandable. jing yuan has not necessarily had a life of leisure, but it has always only been his own.
...kiraman reminds him a bit of someone else, in a way. (not a full memory but an image briefly appears on the screen. a voice saying, "I am not him.") ]
[ he is in fact simultaneously both and it's something caspian himself doesn't always have a firm grasp on. kind of like he doesn't always have a firm grasp on his own identity, what thoughts and likes are his own versus something set up for him. even in that memory, the girl he was with had been a preplanned encounter, and she has played her part just right to make him interested and ask her out.
maddie at least was different. the path after that was different. even if now he's still not sure what to feel about all of it. ]
She got mad at me once for trying to get her to admit she only saw me as a clone. She never did. [ and it's just another reason she was right. people need other people. but there's a moment a new image appears, and he listens to the voice before his gaze flicks back down to jing yuan. ]
I wouldn't blame her. Though were I in your shoes, perhaps I would harbor the same fears.
[ it's sad, then, that caspian is here for the purpose of guiding them to redemption, while his own soul remains ravaged in a way. jing yuan just hopes that it can continue to be bolstered by the people around him like maddie, who care deeply for him.
...his gaze lingers for a moment, but flicks back to caspian, too. ]
I'm sorry, I hadn't meant to interrupt. ...And no, I do not. [ no clones, here. ]
...The young man you see—Dan Heng—is the reincarnation of High Elder of the Vidyadhara. The formal title being 'Imbibitor Lunae'.
His predecessor had committed a grave sin, and was sentenced to confinement and reincarnation under torture. [ needless to say this was before jing yuan had become general. ] Hatching rebirth is meant as a process that fully cleanses one of their past, and offers a blank slate. However... that process was tampered with, because the Vidyadhara council wanted to ensure that Imbibitor Lunae's power continued in their bloodline.
In essence, Dan Heng was forced to inherit a past, and a punishment that was not supposed to belong to him. He was born in a lightless prison, and was held there for far too long.
[ it isn't the same story as caspian's, but he couldn't help notice the parallels. ]
Edited (lol the torture is important to mention) 2025-03-29 02:57 (UTC)
[ he shrugs a little because his fears do not matter at the moment. instead, this story matters because he also sees a lot of the parallels, and he does not like that. it's similar, isn't it? having to inherit even the worst parts of holstrom just to be the same person (the parental abuse, for one, and the isolation for another.) though torture is... bad. torture is bad, and he frowns as he mulls over this. ]
And he doesn't remember being that guy, right? Just someone with this power they don't know what to do with. How did he get out of that prison? [ is he okay now? that's the unasked question. ]
He wasn't supposed to. But the memories were passed along to him, along with Imbibitor Lunae's power.
[ the emotions here are restrained, if not complex. usually they would not be able to be detected at all, but given the nature of the week there is some very faint traces of anger here, and melancholy. perhaps some guilt as well. dan feng had been very dear to jing yuan. and though he has now accepted dan heng as someone else entirely, it is not as if the past can be so simply erased.
but that is not something he gives voice to, mindful of all kiraman has just told him. ]
...It took far too much time, but his release was eventually negotiated for. He is doing well enough, last I saw him.
[ there are some... inevitable complications given his canon point. but otherwise dan heng is a free man now, and surrounded by those who genuinely care for him. ]
[ ... it's kind of nice there are emotions felt here, actually, because it means this actually does matter. that jing yuan realizes how messed up it is that someone other guy's life was foisted onto dan heng, and what that means for him for the rest of his own life.
on the other hand, thank you for not voicing it, yeah. not when kiraman himself still often thinks about the way the woman posing as his mom, who raised him for eighteen years, called him by the wrong name the night (the original's name) the night he finally left home, begging him to stay because he was meant to bring some sort of salvation. ]
... glad to hear it. Probably wouldn't be fair to blame him for something he didn't ask for. [ ... ] But it was also probably difficult to know for sure he wouldn't follow the pattern if everything transferred when it wasn't supposed to.
[ he's still 100% on dan heng's side of this, but in general he can see the issues. ]
![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
no subject
not exactly meant to be an immediate example, but when kiraman slows down for him jing yuan will take advantage to speed ahead. it's not a race (not one he could win even if it were), but he thinks it would be funny to pretend there's any challenge here. he's calling over his shoulder while he's (momentarily) ahead, ]
I think I understand. My situation may be slightly different than yours, but the idea is the same. It's important to be able to stay in touch with yourself, and to put the effort into being connected to the world around you. Even in the little ways, or especially so.
no subject
I think your situation is very different than mine, but the need for normalcy is probably universal. [ but there's something... odd about how he reacts to that. ] I used to have a lot of things I used to do, and I quit most of them as I got older. I don't really regret that though.
[ and lo, the comic shop. he hops off of his board to bring it to a stop, kicking it up to grab it and then basically delete it from space. ]
And here we are.
no subject
It's natural to grow out of things, too. Nobody stays exactly as they are, as the years pass. ...Though admittedly that can be a little difficult to remember, for the same reason.
[ stagnation, his old enemy... but his emotions are calm as he says this, a little amused and reflective. but yay! they've made it! it would be so funny if kiraman just deleted the skateboard under jing yuan's feet. ]
How I've been waiting for this day.
[ the fabled comic shop... as they go inside, ]
...Perhaps you've gotten this question quite a bit, but after speaking with a few others here, I've been wondering. Would it be possible for them to go to a different world after this project is over, instead of back to their original ones?
no subject
[ he should delete the board under jing yuan, but unfortunately, again, he respects the guy so he waits until he's off before deleting that one, too. into the shop they go... ]
... I actually haven't gotten that question, specifically. [ he's drifting to browse comics, thinking this over. ] You mean permanently? It's... maybe possible, but I don't know if there'd be a way back if they ever changed their mind. Why do you ask?
no subject
(also i'm truly floored nobody has asked kiraman about this!! but then again looking at the dysfunction in this gy, NEVERMIND!!) ]
Yes, I do mean permanently. I'm not sure how much you know of everyone's history [ all of it?? either way he's trying to be respectful of people's privacy ], but there are a few here who would be returning to very hostile environments.
For example, where forced human experimentation is rampant, and where fatality is guaranteed for all those who reach the age of 23. [ the virches, man. hawke had also said he wanted to go someplace nicer, but jing yuan doesn't have as much of a grasp of da2 lore. ]
...I suppose, in a similar vein I also have a question about timelines. I do intend to return to when I came from, however in Jiaoqiu's version of things, I never actually died. Would you say that we would be returning to two different realities, in this case?
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I don't know much about any of you outside of what's on the profiles. And nobody really says and assumes we know things, so... not much. [ SHRUG. ] If they're returning to hostile environments that's probably grounds for going somewhere else. God wouldn't send you right back to a place you'd likely die again immediately if you didn't want to. [ he just frowns though because what the fuck lore is this. WHO IS THIS!!! ]
... there's a thing called the Butterfly Effect. Something small, like the flap of a butterfly's wings, could cause huge changes in another set of linear events. That would make it another timeline, or another reality. So yes, I would say you'd be returning to two different ones. I do wonder though if you went back if those two realities would just... merge. If the only differences is you being alive or not.
no subject
That's reassuring to know. It seemed unreasonable to go through the process of redemption, otherwise.
[ but hmm, he's heard of that theory before. ]
...That would be interesting, if the timelines did merge. Or perhaps mine would be absorbed into his, in a way.
[ curiously, ] If that's the case, I may have to wait for Jiaoqiu to contact me, first. Lest I give him a heart attack.
[ since he'd be hypothetically returning to an earlier point in time in their canon... THOUGHT EXERCISES! ]
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anyway. ]
Exactly. Why go through eight whole weeks to go back just to get yourself killed again and end up right back here? You may as well have been accepted in the first place. [ picking up a comic, he starts to thumb through it. ]
The timeline absorbing the old timeline would make sense to me. Like cutting back the dead end so the new one can grow over it. It's not erasing the main root, but it's creating something stronger. I think... it would be more likely yours was absorbed into his, if that's the way it worked. As long as he knew he was meant to contact you in the further. But if you both remember things as they were here, that's a lot of secrets to be keeping from everybody else.
[ which isn't bad. he thinks maybe they could do it? but also you said memshare so conveniently, the screen above kiraman's head kind of flickers on and jing yuan can see whatever the fuck this is. ]
no subject
but also thinks about a potential basqiu wedding in the future and all the lies they would have to make up to their mutual friends...
anyway he's no longer sleepy. AWAKE AFTER THAT MEMSHARE. a bit wryly, after he's absorbed a little more of whatever just happened, ]
...So whose car were you driving?
[ since kiraman had mentioned just earlier he didn't have a car. but more seriously, jing yuan is observing him more closely. it isn't so much he's seeing kiraman in a new light, but more that a new facet of him has been illuminated.
with genuine concern, ] What happened afterwards? Did this all have to do with Safesurf?
no subject
that's very cute though. messy, but cute. trying to explain to hsr who the hell basilio is for jiaoqiu to marry... messy.
GOOD MORNING, SORRY FOR MEM. kiraman tilts his head back to look at the screen and just frowns a little. ]
The people posing as my parents each had their own car. So there was usually at least one I could borrow. [ as for what happened... ] A lot of things happened after that. Safesurf came later, as more UIs started to pop up. But after that specifically? I had Rachel play along to tell Renee I was no longer suspicious of her, while I did more research and waited to confront Cary about what they knew, what the job was, and who I was.
no subject
also bending timelines a bit if that's okay since i don't thiiiink they have this discussion until the weekend: ]
'Posing' as your parents... Is that why you find it difficult to trust adults? And what were you being monitored for, to begin with?
[ reviewing our last lore share thread and though kiraman explained the technology aspect of things in detail... the rest is still a big question mark i believe... ]
no subject
That was before I found out my entire life was a lie. [ ...sigh. ] About eighteen years before I was born, there was a guy named Stephen Holstrom. The world thought of him as a genius, and he had the idea of advancing humanity with the creation of uploaded intelligence. Holstrom's company created the first UIs. But when he created them, there was a flaw in the minds he uploaded. Without solving for integrity, those minds would decay.
He died before he could figure out how to solve it. But he and his people had a back-up plan. [ ... ] Project Moonshot, I guess.
no subject
...You created the cure for the decay, and that cure was Ramiel, if I remember correctly.
Are you saying then... [ his entire life being a lie, a back-up plan... ] Your work was something premeditated by Holstrom?
[ is kiraman (caspian) himself project moonshot...? IS HE A CLONE ]
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That's right. [ to. both of those. ] I don't think I was supposed to start working on a cure until I was in my thirties, but I did it better.
[ fuck stephen holstrom, actually. ]
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I don't doubt it. [ GET HIS ASS! but also... there is obvious concern. imagine finding out you were created solely to be an extension of someone else. that's a huge existential crisis to face. ]
...It must have been a shock, to discover the truth. Is it something you've made peace with?
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What do you mean? It made total sense that my entire life was a lie, a company founded by Holstrom had a whole team that was hired to monitor my every move, my real mom was a robot made for the ectogenesis process, the woman posing as my mom fed weekly reports about me back to them for eighteen years, the man posing as my father believed in their project so strongly he went right along with everything up until he told me the truth, and every significant moment of my childhood was modeled beat for beat after someone else to make sure I'd grow up the same way.
[ so no! no peace! but...he does say something he normally wouldn't, just for context. ]
... without Maddie, I would have ended up just like him. And because of her, I knew how to stop him.
no subject
jing yuan will let that explanation soak in for a moment. his projected emotions are still calm, but reflective. almost solemn. he waits for kiraman to finish speaking. ]
...I am sorry, Caspian. Truly.
[ it is terribly cruel, to be raised within a cage, to be designed to be without true agency or autonomy. ]
I'm grateful you did have someone in all this. And that you ended up as yourself, despite everything.
no subject
there's a brief bolt of surprise at the use of his actual name, but he allows it. ]
Maddie and I meeting was coincidence. Sort of. She reached out to me because we met online and we were talking about UIs and... Logorhythms never expected me to go off of their path. So I Guess I'm pretty grateful to her, too.
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and he wishes there was something he could say, to ease that pain. (thankfully, kiraman finds the words himself.) ]
...I can see why she's so special to you. And likewise, I believe she saw you for who you were. Not what you were designed to be.
[ the lingering anger, and the longing... kiraman could be more destructive with those feelings, and it would be understandable. jing yuan has not necessarily had a life of leisure, but it has always only been his own.
...kiraman reminds him a bit of someone else, in a way. (not a full memory but an image briefly appears on the screen. a voice saying, "I am not him.") ]
no subject
maddie at least was different. the path after that was different. even if now he's still not sure what to feel about all of it. ]
She got mad at me once for trying to get her to admit she only saw me as a clone. She never did. [ and it's just another reason she was right. people need other people. but there's a moment a new image appears, and he listens to the voice before his gaze flicks back down to jing yuan. ]
... you have them, too? [ clones. ]
no subject
[ it's sad, then, that caspian is here for the purpose of guiding them to redemption, while his own soul remains ravaged in a way. jing yuan just hopes that it can continue to be bolstered by the people around him like maddie, who care deeply for him.
...his gaze lingers for a moment, but flicks back to caspian, too. ]
I'm sorry, I hadn't meant to interrupt. ...And no, I do not. [ no clones, here. ]
...The young man you see—Dan Heng—is the reincarnation of High Elder of the Vidyadhara. The formal title being 'Imbibitor Lunae'.
His predecessor had committed a grave sin, and was sentenced to confinement and reincarnation under torture. [ needless to say this was before jing yuan had become general. ] Hatching rebirth is meant as a process that fully cleanses one of their past, and offers a blank slate. However... that process was tampered with, because the Vidyadhara council wanted to ensure that Imbibitor Lunae's power continued in their bloodline.
In essence, Dan Heng was forced to inherit a past, and a punishment that was not supposed to belong to him. He was born in a lightless prison, and was held there for far too long.
[ it isn't the same story as caspian's, but he couldn't help notice the parallels. ]
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And he doesn't remember being that guy, right? Just someone with this power they don't know what to do with. How did he get out of that prison? [ is he okay now? that's the unasked question. ]
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He wasn't supposed to. But the memories were passed along to him, along with Imbibitor Lunae's power.
[ the emotions here are restrained, if not complex. usually they would not be able to be detected at all, but given the nature of the week there is some very faint traces of anger here, and melancholy. perhaps some guilt as well. dan feng had been very dear to jing yuan. and though he has now accepted dan heng as someone else entirely, it is not as if the past can be so simply erased.
but that is not something he gives voice to, mindful of all kiraman has just told him. ]
...It took far too much time, but his release was eventually negotiated for. He is doing well enough, last I saw him.
[ there are some... inevitable complications given his canon point. but otherwise dan heng is a free man now, and surrounded by those who genuinely care for him. ]
no subject
on the other hand, thank you for not voicing it, yeah. not when kiraman himself still often thinks about the way the woman posing as his mom, who raised him for eighteen years, called him by the wrong name the night (the original's name) the night he finally left home, begging him to stay because he was meant to bring some sort of salvation. ]
... glad to hear it. Probably wouldn't be fair to blame him for something he didn't ask for. [ ... ] But it was also probably difficult to know for sure he wouldn't follow the pattern if everything transferred when it wasn't supposed to.
[ he's still 100% on dan heng's side of this, but in general he can see the issues. ]